Gearbox Problems

[DaveB]

My 120VTi has a gearbox problem. Between about 30 & 40 mph it whines under load. The dealer's had a look at it & accepts that there is a noise, but says that there's a service bulletin about this which states that it's "characteristic", so there's nothing they can do.

Not wishing to get into an argument with the dealer, I contacted Citroën UK, & got the same response in a somewhat condescending manner.

So, has anyone else noticed this problem? Personally, I find such a noise unacceptable in a new car & am appalled at Citroën's attitude both to product quality & customer service; I'd like to get some idea of how prevalent it is before involving Trading Standards.

"Characteristic" - motor-trade-speak for "get stuffed".

[Mr-T]

Over on the AlfaOwner forum many people, myself included, over a considerable period of time, began to complain about a hesitation issue with the 2.2 petrol Brera.

It was dangerous in that you'd go to pull out of a junction for example and the engine would virtually die.

Anyway, Alfa dismissed this as a 'characteristic'. They started to sit up and take notice though when people began making the motoring press aware of this 'characteristic'. Funnily enough late model Breras didn't suffer so badly!

So that's my suggestion if many people start suffering in the same way (and I've got a 120 coming soon!) and are just dismissed. Let the press know.

[Ojohn]

Yep had my Car 3 days now and its driving me nuts along with all the rattles in the dash and rear seat belt housing.
Ihave just joined the club to find out about this before I approach the dealer.

[DaveB]

Having thought a bit more about this, I'm going to email "What Car" & get their advice &, hopefully, involvement. My position, which I couldn't get over to Citroen, is that the existence of the service bulletin acknowledges that there is a manufacturing fault & that this places an obligation on them to ensure that it doesn't affect new vehicles, not dodge the issue my branding it a "characteristic".

[StevenRR]

Email Top Gear magazine at citroen.ds3@bbc.com They're running a DS3 as a lifer and are usually interested in hearing customer reviews/problems.

[DaveB]

An update:

I've emailed "What Car"; got the standard automated reply, so I don't know yet whether or not they will take up my case.

Spoken to Trading Standards who say that as the car is not of satisfactory quality I have the right to reject it or demand a satisfactory repair; I'm putting this in writing to the dealer.

I've emailed "Top Gear".

[gar074]

Without wishing in any way to put a damper on this - I'd be mightily pi**ed off if my car had a pronounced gearbox whine - how do Trading Standards know that your car is not of satisfactory quality? Did Trading Standards do an inspection? Have you had an engineer's report done?

Are you sure TS didn't say that "if" the car is not of satisfactory quality, you have the right to reject it? Big difference!

[Perry]

I have a whine on mine but dont really notice it to be honest. doesnt mean there is damage taking place at all?

[DaveB]

Without wishing in any way to put a damper on this - I'd be mightily pi**ed off if my car had a pronounced gearbox whine - how do Trading Standards know that your car is not of satisfactory quality? Did Trading Standards do an inspection? Have you had an engineer's report done?

The dealer accepts that there is a fault. The Sale of Goods Act states that a product "must be as good as any reasonable person would expect" & that "If it is new, it should be free from even minor defects."

I have a whine on mine but dont really notice it to be honest. doesnt mean there is damage taking place at all?

It will probably go on for years without getting any worse - or any better!

[gar074]

The dealer accepts that there is a fault. The Sale of Goods Act states that a product "must be as good as any reasonable person would expect" & that "If it is new, it should be free from even minor defects."

There is an important difference between the dealer accepting that there is a noise, as you said in your original post that they've done, and them accepting that this constitutes a fault/defect. It looks as though they've been careful so far to avoid conceding that this "characteristic" noise is a defect.

The existence of the service bulletin doesn't provide cast-iron evidence that Citroen have acknowledged the existence of a fault - in fact, by stating that this noise is a "characteristic" of the car, the service bulletin seems to be denying that it is a fault. As for the test of "satisfactory quality" under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, you are right in thinking that the test to be applied is whether the goods supplied are of a standard that a reasonable person would consider to be satisfactory, but the problem you face here is that if the majority of owners aren't much bothered by the whine (see eg Perry's post), the fact that some, like you and Ojohn, are bothered by it won't aid you very much, as Citroen are likely to argue that as the majority of (presumably reasonable) 120VTi owners consider their cars to be satisfactory, the car must in legal terms be considered to be of satisfactory quality - and how are you to prove otherwise? Incidentally, the Sale of Goods Act doesn't expressly say that goods must be free from any defect - although there is case law under the Act to that effect - but again the problem you face is that if Citroen are denying that the noise is in fact a defect, this line of argument may not get you very far.

As Mr-T points out in his post, if manufacturers choose to dig their heels in over an issue like this, as Alfa did with the hesitation problem on the 2.2 Brera and 159 (which I know from experience is a real safety issue), and deny that there is a fault, it's likely to be very difficult for a customer to get one over on them. Just think of the commercial implications if Citroen had to recall all the cars with this gearbox and fit replacement boxes (assuming that they could find a fix for the problem). Recent history (eg Toyota) shows that manufacturers are extremely reluctant to do big recalls, even where there are safety issues. The chances of a recall for a noisy gearbox are slim.

I wish you the very best of luck with your campaign, and will be very pleased for you (and others) if you get a result, but I suspect that you're in for a tough battle.

At the end of the day, what you you want to get out of this? A full refund? A swap for a differently-engined DS3 without a whining gearbox? Who knows, they may be willing to do a deal just to make you go away...

[Gareth]

I have slight whine. But quite like it. Reminds me of my 1.3 Mini cooper I had. It's only under acceleration in low gears on mine. I hope you can get them to resolve it if it's annoying you.

[Perry]

SAme as Gareth once you get going there is no whine and you just fly along. reminds me too of the cooper that my friend has at the end of the road. Yet again im young and amused by anything, lol.

[JoeDS3]

Mine (120 VTi) does similar just not to the extent that it bothers me.

I have had two incidents of crunching it into 2nd gear, but not sure yet if it's a problem or laziness or just habit of owning £500 bangers with well run-in gearboxes!

Hope you sort it out.

J

[TonyF]

Thought you guys might be interested in my experience with this.
The day after I took delivery of my DS3 (5 speed box) last summer I noticed a whine under load and on decelerating under engine braking. It was most noticeable between 30 and 50mph. I looked on line and immediately found this thread
The dealer - Arnold Clark in Stirling accepted that there was a noise - both the salesman and workshop manager came out with me.
First they decided to replace the driveshafts
This made no difference
Then they decided to replace all the gearbox bearings
still no difference.
Meantime the workshop manager and I drove about 5 other new and nearly new DS3s in various engine gearbox configurations. All made a little gearbox noise mainly in internediate gears but none came near mine.
I became so sensitive to this noise that I also spotted it in a C3 loan car and also a Fiat Panda hired on holiday. Wonder if the Panda has the same gearbox.
Initally Citroen UK were not helpful but the garage persisted and finally
they agreed that when their engineers were nearby they would take a look. This took place last week and the outcome is they have said that while a degree of whine is inevitable, mine is excessive so it's going in next Monday to have the gearbox replaced. Hopefully it will be better!
All through this I must say that the garage has been really helpful. I can only praise them for being professional and persistent.
I think though the bottom line is that this gearbox is noisy and Citroen are well aware of it.
I can't think of any other car I have driven with obvious transmission whine - I dont expect to hear the gearbox at all.