Slight juddering problem

[jimmy.e]

I got an answer from citroen today, Aboute my engine trouble.

When i left the car this morning,the technican asked me. How many miles ago, It had happen.
-I said it could be between 50-70miles.
Later today at 14:00 they called, And said that they couldnt find any fault codes in the computer.But 60 miles ago the engine/computer did a particel filter cleaning. And after a little brainstorming/thinking it was pretty accurate when it had happend.

Iam pretty satisfied with the answer for time being. But next time it happends i will record it on my phone and ask again on the 2000mile service.

[ElRey]

Interesting! Pretty poor though if the cleaning of the particle filter causes such erratic engine behaviour....and also why does the juddering only happen at a steady 50-70mph in 5th gear?

There's certainly something else at fault on my car because it is making such thudding/knocking noises when I change gear, and the way the power picks up after each gear change is random. Sometimes it's fine, other times it's almost as if the clutch is biting twice, especially when entering 2nd, causing the car to lurch as if I was a poor driver unable to control the clutch properly!....Never had this problem on any car before!

Two other related things.......

1. Has anyone else noticed that the clutch pedal feels loose? Not when it's fully up or down, but during use.
2. HDi drivers only. Has anyone noticed as problem in 4th gear, when driving along, if you lift off the accelerator totally, then re-apply power, there is a delay, sometimes a knock, and then the car lurches crudely as the engine takes up the drive again?

My dealer is letting me drive a 'normal' DStyle HDi, so I'll see if these problems are specific to my car, or the 99g etc etc, before seeing if we can do a deal to change cars.

[jimmy.e]

1. Has anyone else noticed that the clutch pedal feels loose? Not when it's fully up or down, but during use.
2. HDi drivers only. Has anyone noticed as problem in 4th gear, when driving along, if you lift off the accelerator totally, then re-apply power, there is a delay, sometimes a knock, and then the car lurches crudely as the engine takes up the drive again?

1.No not mine.
2. i have the 110hk 6speed And i have noticed a small deley. But that is the turbo working up a pressure"turbo lag"
- It is noticable on evry car. Some more,some less.

BTW: do u know if they have check the DSP.? so its working propely.

[ElRey]

Thanks for your replies jimmy.

I'll get the clutch pedal checked out.
This delay in 4th gear doesn't feel like a turbo lag delay, it's a very harsh kind of shunt, sometimes with a knocking noise. The shunt is the same thing I can feel when changing gear. I'm convinced something is wrong either in the gearbox, clutch assembly, driveshaft or possible a dodgy engine mount.

What's the DSP?

[ds3oo1]

I have had this problem to when I'm in 4th or 5th gear at about 50 to 60 mph if I
Lift off the throttle very bad delay in
Pick up of speed iv got the hdi 90
Off to CITROEN again me thinks

[jimmy.e]

Opps i meant ASR anti spinn system.
- I dont know where i got dsp from.:confused:

When i tried to do a little burnout and i forgot the ASR, DAMN it sounded like i killed the gearbox with a nuke.
-A big kachunk and then rolling slow ahead. "like a dubbel clutching" but faster.

It could be something like this to. Broken clutch spring
http://www.fiatforum.com/cinquecento...utch-pics.html
Its hard to determin a fault,from here. Iam from the old school i need to drive it,then i can say with 90% accuracy what it is. If its mechanical.

[ElRey]

Jimmy,

Your last post is VERY interesting. I remember when I first looked at the car, it was in the showroom. When I asked to take it out for a test drive, the sales rep drove it out of the showroom, but as he did so, drove the passenger side wheels over a large carpet mat. The mat slipped under the wheels, and the wheels momentarily spun on the passenger side. I do remember hearing a cracking/banging noise. The driver's side wheels weren't on the mat and so were gripping the floor.

Is it possible that this whole problem is down to some damage the dealer did getting it out of the showroom...ie because of the mat slipping under the wheels, it has damaged either the clutch or ASR system somehow?

This double clutching thing you mention, pardon my ignorance, but is this when the clutch feels as though it's biting twice when you lift the pedal? Mine does this in 2nd gear quite a lot.

Whatever it is that reacts to the drive/torque definately isn't right. The car lurches so much, and I have to be ultra gentle with the pedals to get it to drive smoothly, and even then it will still make knocking noises. It just feels and sounds like the gearbox is going to fall off.

Pity the mechnics at my dealer aren't from the old school. If the fault doesn't appear on a laptop, then they never find anything wrong! The one thing we have established is that there is nothing visibly wrong, so it must be either clutch or gearbox, but I don't hold out any hope of getting the them dismantled under warranty!

[Mr-T]

ElRey, have you thought about having your car, and it's problems, independently assessed?

[jimmy.e]

U can do a little test, And check the asr. If u find a hill with tarmac on one side and "wet" grass on the sides of the road.
Drive the car so ur left tyre is on the grass and right tyre is on the road.
Left tyre should spin because the diff "planet gears in the gearbox" When the computer gets it that one wheel is spinning, It should cut the throttle little untill it doesent spinn.
-It could do something more too, That i doesent know."at this time"

Press ASR button untill the ASR light in the dash lights up "ASR disengaged" now u can spinn all the gears up to 4k-7k on the tachometer.
PS: Keep it sane,Dont rev it up to 6-7k on 4th 5th gear. If u should get traction at that state, Then u can kiss ur gearbox godby.

If i think alittle: i think the ASR goes in automaticly at speeds over 50km/h on evry ds3, And on the DS3s it dosent.
Ds3 u can disengage it up to 50km/h
Ds3s u can disengage it fully, for trackdays.

I can test it myself on the way home from work, and then tell later what happends with my car.

Edit: correction: turning of the ESP should turn of the ASR. My old c4 had 2 buttons one for ASR and one for ESP.
-I thought the DS3 had the same.

[ElRey]

Well, I seem to have finally got to the bottom of this problem!

Car is in with the dealer at the moment. They called yesterday to say they have experienced some of the symptoms I've been describing, and think it's a broken clutch flywheel. So, we'll see how long it takes to get it fixed. At least I now have progress, and the dealer has acknowledged the fault.

[Jimbob]

Elray

I live and work in Cheshire. If you want to try my 99g for comparison we could set something up.
I dont seem to have any of the problems you mention with the possible exception of poor pick up from very low speeds - but maybe thats my expectations being too high.

Jimbob

[linstan3]

I have the 110 bhp as a company car which possibly explains why mine doesn't have these drive issue, I have found driving it hard seems to be great but lower speeds and gentle acceleration makes it feel clunky and rough. Being a rep, I drive it like I stole it so it's all good.

[Yellow]

hope you get it fixed. my normal diesel is driven by erratic learners and the only sounds are me banging my head on the screen when they decide to stall as violently as possible :0)

[ElRey]

Last time I posted on this, the dealer had acknowledged the problem, and said it was probably the clutch flywheel at fault.

When I went to collect the car the next day I find them saying there's nothing wrong with the car, none of their staff had ever told me it is a flywheel problem, and that between them they have so much experience of working on Citroens, that I'm talking crap..."fundamentally there is nothing wrong with the car, they all do that". The conversation gradually became more heated, and they wheeled out a range of excuses for this problem....

1. "It's the turbo stalling."
2. "It's because the sub-frame is hollow aluminium tube."
3. "It's the particulate filter cutting in."

All absolute rubbish.

I had four of them 'gang up' on me, and in the end I just told them to give me the keys back and I walked out. How they cannot find this fault is beyond me! I have never, ever driven a car that knocks every time I change gear, judders when I go on/off the accelerator and makes a knocking noise when I turn the engine off. So unimpressed with the DS3 and the After Sales service that I wish I'd just paid out money to have my old Bora repaired..driving around in an ordinary but fully functional car is better than driving around in an eye-catcher that is ablsolutely no pleasure to drive.

The really annoying thing is that I am powerless to do anything, and the dealer will always win when they don't want to carry out warranty work. They just refuse to acknowledge anything but the most blindlingly obvious faults, in the knowledge that if I get an independent inspection, they will just dispute the outcome, if I reject the car they will say they never experienced the fault, meaning I cannot reject it because in their 'expert' view, it is fit for purpose, and of course, Citroen UK are totally powerless to do anything against a franchised dealer......Customer beaten all ends up!

[linstan3]

The only option I can see now is for you to take it to a different dealer or franchised repairer for them to assess, don't tell them the history, just ask them to check the faults.

I bought mine from the WORST car dealer in the area as they were the only ones I could get a DS3 from at the time, once purchased, 1 fault took 4 weeks to fix so now I take it to an independent Citroen franchised repairer who have been great.

ORIGINAL DEALER PERFORMANCE
Front wheel arch liner sagging, tried to SELL me a new plastic clip as fob me off but I demanded an inspection and the part allegedly ordered, 4 weeks later I call to be told they have tried to call me in but no messages at home or on work mobile so they just LIED to me, fixed it in 3 hours

FRANCHISED SERVICE GARAGE PERFORMANCE
1st service done in 3 hours with a loan car organised in 1 day
1st fault (washer jets not working this week) and they said drop by in 2 hours, fixed it in 5 minutes and never charged me

Dealers who sell the cars just want your money, nothing more. Garages who fix cars want your repeat business, hence, better service