THP 150 Stutter under acceleration

[Jonbays]

I agree, you just wouldn't expect these issues with a new car purchase. I understand that anything manufactured can go wrong but these are similar issues on the same new cars

Look I knew that these GDI Turbo engines had problems back in 2008 just thought they would have fixed them by now. At the time I bought a Toyota Aurion we call them big reliable MPI 3.5L V6 with 200kw it was fast but BORING and completely reliable and at least ran MPI not the GDI of the sister car Lexus model.

[Jonbays]

Interestingly the Lexus GDI ran auxiliary port injectors as well as direct injectors which seems to have been their work around to improve reliability and avoid the carbonising problem of BMW and Audi's GDI engines. GM seem to have had more success working on the valve timing and spray pattern of the injector which suggests there is more to this than just the PCV issues but of course with a turbo the PCV does appear to be problematic. Honda have just released their VTEC Turbo GDI engine range and although a major engine company they have been slow to jump on the bandwagon so perhaps their engineers have worked out how to build a reliable in the real world turbo GDI engine better than poor old BMW whose prince engine is now clearly going to be retired early.

[monkeynuts]

One week at the garage and the latest is that the new turbo has arrived. The cylinder head has been removed stripped and chemically cleaned and is being rebuilt with new seals etc. Still waiting on a new rocker cover assembly to come in though before the engine can be fully rebuilt. They need the car for another week probably maybe more depending on parts.

Citroen are paying the dealer all under warranty so everyone is happy enough.

Interesting to see what the new rocker cover is all about? A revised PCV system of some kind of course I will bet. Not complaining about a new turbo but can't see how that will help. The cylinder head cleaning sounds like it's all been done thoroughaly which is good.

Just waiting for it all to be finished and glad I have a bicycle 40 years old but it still works and I don't mid riding in good weather while the car is out of action. Fortunate I can afford to be a Citroen owner and stand all these inconveniences and out of pocket expenses but you would have to say despite the joy of driving a DS3 DSport the ownership experience is poor. I haven't had a new car that needed this much work ever and I have been buying new cars every three to five years for myself since 1995.

I feel for you my Thp 150 was binned before it got to that stage and tbh I lost enough money when the car was having timing chain issues

During my woe the bit that got me is some of the comments I heard " that is what your warranty is for sir " and "new cars do have niggley little faults "

all utter crap

[Jonbays]

The DS3 THP155 is back from the garage. I have to say they may have took their time but they did a thorough job. Citroen were pretty reasonable in approving all sorts of things to be replaced but the reasons for most of them were unknown or vague. The obvious problem identified was excessive carbon build up on the back of the inlet valves and inlet tract with oil film build up on the inlet to the intercooler. This on a car with less than 12,000km or 7,500 miles on it!

To decoke it the head it had to be removed and chemically cleaned in the end. properly done but I wouldn't want to be paying for it to be done again myself.

So what was done? Well first a quick seafoam type clean which didn't work then a full removal and chemical clean of the head with the valves being removed relapped in to the head and fitted with new stem seals. All this just remedial cleaning work not fault fixing as stem seals not seen as a problem.

Lots of things were replaced. Turbo! Timing chain guides tensioner, cylinder head cover. Why well the answers were; timing chain might have stretched? The turbo was putting oil into the engine? the cylinder head cover has some PCV valves that may have not been operating properly?

The ECU was also given a software update and initialised adaptives which means the long term trims were reset to 0.

[Ragnarok]

The DS3 THP155 is back from the garage. I have to say they may have took their time but they did a thorough job. Citroen were pretty reasonable in approving all sorts of things to be replaced but the reasons for most of them were unknown or vague. The obvious problem identified was excessive carbon build up on the back of the inlet valves and inlet tract with oil film build up on the inlet to the intercooler. This on a car with less than 12,000km or 7,500 miles on it!

To decoke it the head it had to be removed and chemically cleaned in the end. properly done but I wouldn't want to be paying for it to be done again myself.

So what was done? Well first a quick seafoam type clean which didn't work then a full removal and chemical clean of the head with the valves being removed relapped in to the head and fitted with new stem seals. All this just remedial cleaning work not fault fixing as stem seals not seen as a problem.

Lots of things were replaced. Turbo! Timing chain guides tensioner, cylinder head cover. Why well the answers were; timing chain might have stretched? The turbo was putting oil into the engine? the cylinder head cover has some PCV valves that may have not been operating properly?

The ECU was also given a software update and initialised adaptives which means the long term trims were reset to 0.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]8311[/ATTACH]

That's an expensive car for the dealer...

[Jonbays]

Well not really the dealer waited for Citroen to authorise all the work and got paid warranty labour rates which aren't great but not bad. The mechanic actually like working on 12,00km car and getting to pull down the engine on a clean new car it's easier than an old GS.

Now Citroen must be hurting hopefully they bill this all back to BMW?

That's an expensive car for the dealer...

[Jonbays]

OK here is the new cylinder head cover on my DS3 THP155 looks the same to me except for the PCV piping and attachment on the turbo side.

Reason I asked for a photo of your engine, is that the PCV pipework on the THP 155 has changed from the 150, and it may be this that has seen a drastic drop in issues with the 155 engine, so far.

[Jonbays]

Testing the DS3 with the torque pro logging today and all is going well no fault codes, long term fuel trim only -3% power peaks at 117kw 0-60 7.36 sec 40-60 3.3 sec. Seat of the pants it feels faster at the top end revving out better. So far so good! Compared to previous logs I would have to say its faster and more powerful but of course without the "private test track" there are a few too many other variables to say conclusively but overall gut feel and logged measurements are better than before suggesting that the top end performance was dropping off as the valves and inlet was getting carboned up.

[Gazski66]

The DS3 THP155 is back from the garage. I have to say they may have took their time but they did a thorough job. Citroen were pretty reasonable in approving all sorts of things to be replaced but the reasons for most of them were unknown or vague. The obvious problem identified was excessive carbon build up on the back of the inlet valves and inlet tract with oil film build up on the inlet to the intercooler. This on a car with less than 12,000km or 7,500 miles on it!

To decoke it the head it had to be removed and chemically cleaned in the end. properly done but I wouldn't want to be paying for it to be done again myself.

So what was done? Well first a quick seafoam type clean which didn't work then a full removal and chemical clean of the head with the valves being removed relapped in to the head and fitted with new stem seals. All this just remedial cleaning work not fault fixing as stem seals not seen as a problem.

Lots of things were replaced. Turbo! Timing chain guides tensioner, cylinder head cover. Why well the answers were; timing chain might have stretched? The turbo was putting oil into the engine? the cylinder head cover has some PCV valves that may have not been operating properly?

The ECU was also given a software update and initialised adaptives which means the long term trims were reset to 0.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]8311[/ATTACH]

Really glad you have it back, a hell of a lot of work for a stutter lol

[lfcrule1972]

Great news - time to enjoy your DS3 again !

Thanks for all the info you've posted up, it might help someone else in the future...

[Jonbays]

Yes a lot of work to fix a stutter indeed!

Something a prospective owner could easily overlook on a test drive as a small easily fixed thing at the next service.

The actual cost of replacing all these parts and the labour is well past what would be financially viable to any owner of a second hand DS3. You would have to live with it and sell the car. Eventually if this becomes well known the resale value will tank. So not truly in my interests to put this out there BUT... lets hope it helps someone else.

The BMW Prince petrol direct injection turbo engines do have a propensity to carbon up very badly very quickly and this is not something that Citroen have really got on top of taking years with steady small changes mostly to the PCV system design in the rocker cover and perhaps ECU valve timing changes and timing chain, tensioner and sprocket changes. Citroen have chosen not to freely and openly send out updates on the problem or suggested solutions or updated revised parts so that even the good dealer garages rely on replacing everything and anything remotely linked to see if this fixes it. Even Citroen warranty prefer to take this approach in my case where so much was changed but little credible explanation could be given as to why suggesting that this is an issue not yet fully understood. it seems pointless to have a Euro5 emissions compliant engine with good power and great fuel consumption that requires a top end rebuild every 12,000km!

I wonder what the VTi120 fitted with a turbo would be like? It would be interesting if it had the same problems or not as I would suspect the port injection head would not have the same problems at all. Of course harder to meet fuel and emissions with this set up too.

Of course neither of these are Citroen engines. So what is BMW doing? In 2016 BMW in the Mini that they make will retire the prince N13, N18 engine with a new range of B38 1.5L 100kW / 134 HP (3 cylinder) and B48 2.0L 140kW / 187 HP (4 cylinder) engines.

Citroen have announced EB Turbo PureTech engine will be introduced initially on the Citroën C4 (110g CO2/km) and the Peugeot 308 (107g CO2/km) in March 2014, followed by the Peugeot 208 (105g CO2/km), and lastly by the Citroën C3 and DS3 (105g CO2/km) in July 2014.

[Chris_Blue]

Cant disagree with what you say Jonbays. Although I know someone (Not on here) who has a THP almost 40,000 miles and never an issue with anything
And he drives it quick. Not modified at all tho.

I also know couple others, (1 on here) on around 30k with only minor issues, and not really engine related. So it really is a hit and miss affair
Even if you total up every THP owner on here, bet the engine related issues are small compared to the level of ownership

Ive spoken to Citroen Techs, and they say they don't get many back (But they would, wouldn't they)

I'm on my second, and loving it! All I can say really.

However- a catch can would really help the quality of the stuff the engine burns, with good fuel too. So that may well be my next step as at 11500 miles now

[Jonbays]

Yes Chris the oil catch can is on my Christmas list too for sure! I have to say it's going well and I am enjoying driving the car a great deal so wish it keeps up the good behaviour for a little more than the next 12,000km.

I think that the hit and miss of this problem is a little odd to say the least though. I can see how it would easily be underreported as many owners might not notice or even bother about a small stutter and a slow gradual decrease in power and once the carbon build up is well and truly baked on and the long term trims backed right off then the stutter probably goes away anyway.

The annoying thing is not really getting a suitably satisfying cause and effect of the problem which goes to the hit and miss of it I guess.

[Chris_Blue]

It could even be something in the production process. A slightly not 100% engineered piece of the engine, a quick job with someone under pressure, or even quality checks not what they should be. "Friday afternoon" motors maybe.
There has also been discussion on here about driving style, whether the car needs to be driven hard now and again to burn deposits away, or whether it needs not to be driven hard, Hitting the high end of the rev range, or not as it goes. Think all things have to be considered. A sensitive engine nonetheless.
Timing chain and carbonisation of valves seem to be main culprits

[ghenderson]

Stuttering - DS3 1.6e-HDi (90bhp)

I bought my car new on 1st September 2013 and after a couple of months have experienced the "stuttering". It generally happens when going from 60-70mph, stutters then smooth stutters then smooth.

When it first happened I rang my Citroen dealer who advised it could be due to the "particulate" filter and would need a "blast out" every month or so, in a low gear with high revs!

My husband wasn't happy with this explanation and we booked in the car to be checked over. They admitted there was a stuttering at higher acceleration and when I went to pick the car back they said it had been "de-coked" and a "software update" which had been released the previous day. I drove the car home and it was like it was the first day I drove it, smooth and light!!! Result!!! Or so I thought!

It developed the stuttering again, we dropped the car at the garage again on 27.12.13 with the same fault. I received a call from the service dept at 2.30 to advise the car was ready to pick up. He explained on the phone that the mechanic who took it out said that the limiter had been left on at 50! I explained that you can't leave the limiter on and that it goes off as soon as the ignition turns off, so when the mechanic took the car out the limiter wouldn't have been on!!! The fault finder report came back clear as I expected after receiving this sort of answer! When I went to collect the car I told the service chap that I objected to being told that the limiter had been "left on" as the only time I use it is to go through a particular town where the limit is 30mph and then knock it off myself, and that the limiter itself is turned off when the ignition is turned off. His reply was "well its just what the guys in the back have said"!!!!!

I took the car home. Took it out the following day and guess what.....yes the stuttering is still there! This is in fact the 3rd time we have reported it, the second time it has been in the garage. Any advice on what to do next?????

Sorry about the rant but I took offence at the way he spoke to me, because I am a woman driver, thinking I don't know how to use my car!!!!!

Looking forward to any replies.

Cheers