DS3 Intercooler

[rthahira]

Looking at the pics I think Forge's measurements are just for the core, the full sizes looks very similar and the top brackets look to be in almost identical places to me.

Airtec (pic from here):



Forge (pic from here):

If you look in the left size, it´s possible to see that Forge is a lit bit longer

[Chris_Blue]

Hi, Chris, thank you. I´m really interested in this intercooler because Forge is so expensive!

Me too :-)
Airtec looks a little smaller core wise, but at half the price who cares
Would like to see some figures: Performance improvement )BHP figures) and temp drop

[Czar]

Good evening guys here is a little guidance, so hopefully anyone reading this, maybe a little wiser to the bewildering array of air to air Intercoolers on offer, and the somewhat wild exaggerated claims by the suppliers and resellers.

I will try keep it brief.

Firstly, 99% of aftermarket Intercooler manufacturers, suppliers and resellers, give you the blah blah spiel, as to how their particular Intercooler is better than the standard fitment OEM Intercooler, hmm let's think about this,

Ever seen a like for like copy of the OEM Intercooler, and by that, I mean exact dimensions, tube count and fins per inch, produced by 99% of the aftermarket brigade ?

Answer is NO, why ? Here's why.

Because if 99% of the aftermarket brigade were to reproduce an exact like for like copy of the OEM, a large percentage of the aftermarket manufacturers like for like copy, would actually perform poorer than the OEM Intercooler !!

So to get around this issue, they rely on volume, and convince you, the uneducated, that their larger aftermarket Intercooler is far superior to the OEM Intercooler, when in actual fact, it's the shear volume (over size) which does the cooling, NOT the actual performance of the aftermarket intercooler!!

Furthermore, 99% of aftermarket Intercooler manufacturers talk about pressure drop, the less pressure restriction (drop) the Intercooler offers, this helps maintain the charged pressure from the turbo, entering and exiting the Intercooler, and to the unaware, this sounds like magic, again it's all down to shear volume, and a low fins per inch count, the less fins per inch, the lower the drop in pressure resistance.

So all in all, all your buying over and above the OEM is a larger volume capacity, and not necessarily the performance you thought, or the claims exaggerated by 99% of aftermarket Intercoolers, think about this, a small room is warmer than a large cathedral.

Here are two images of the Intercoolers i manufacturer (handcrafted) note the fins per inch.

External view


Internal view

[Chris_Blue]

Surely the bigger the better- more chance of cooling
Would put 2 OEM intercoolers in series, if could find the room

Is there a need to rejig the ECU map with a bigger intercooler to benefit from the temps, or is it OK to leave as is?

I think Jamies at SPTunings Forge intercooler gains him round 10BHP- sheer volume obvs

[Czar]

Surely the bigger the better- more chance of cooling
Would put 2 OEM intercoolers in series, if could find the room

Is there a need to rejig the ECU map with a bigger intercooler to benefit from the temps, or is it OK to leave as is?

I think Jamies at SPTunings Forge intercooler gains him round 10BHP- sheer volume obvs

As I've just explained, size in this case is not best, it's all about the heat exchange efficiency (temperature delta) and the recovery rate from heat exchange, the ECU will not require any adjustments, furthermore, Intercoolers do NOT add HP, they merely recapture lost performance adjustments the self adapting ECU makes as the air intake temperatures increase or decrease, the ECU will retard or advance the timing and camshaft phase to suit the temperature parameters.

Additional note; take my Intercoolers, they rely on FPI (fins per inch) to do the exchange of heat efficiency, and not volume, I could and sometimes do, produce like for like sized Intercoolers as the OEM factory Intercoolers, which perform far far far better than any oversized large volume aftermarket Intercooler, the only downside to mine is cost.

[rthahira]

As I've just explained, size in this case is not best, it's all about the heat exchange efficiency (temperature delta) and the recovery rate from heat exchange, the ECU will not require any adjustments, furthermore, Intercoolers do NOT add HP, they merely recapture lost performance adjustments the self adapting ECU makes as the air intake temperatures increase or decrease, the ECU will retard or advance the timing and camshaft phase to suit the temperature parameters.

Additional note; take my Intercoolers, they rely on FPI (fins per inch) to do the exchange of heat efficiency, and not volume, I could and sometimes do, produce like for like sized Intercoolers as the OEM factory Intercoolers, which perform far far far better than any oversized large volume aftermarket Intercooler, the only downside to mine is cost.

Thank you for share!
So what do you suggest for a THP with a hybrid turbocharger (42/40), hardpipes and downpipe w/o cat, 2,5" exhaust, forge intake and remap.
Because after two or three pulls from 80km/h, the engine lost power with high temperatures using the OEM intercooler.
Thank you.
Rodrigo

[Jamie@SPTuning]

With the OEM cooler intake temps can race up to 70degrees causing timing intervention, this begins to happen at around 40 degrees. The forge cooler keeps the temps below this now, usually just few degrees above ambient. Like Czar said it's to do with cooling efficiency not size of the actual cooler. The Forge matrix fins are still more chunky and less dense than OEM but it's more the relocation of the cooler which gives the aftermarket cooler the advantage in this case. Have always thought moving the OEM cooler to a behind grill position would be a cheap effective mod.

[Czar]

Further to Jamie's post above ^^^ lets see if I can make things a little clearer.

Presuming you all understand how the air to air Intercooler works, and what it's constructed from, let's move on from the basics.

Positioning; crucial if you want the best chance of thermal exchange, look at the image below, you will see the Forge offering top, and the factory OEM Intercooler below, yes there is a physical dimensional difference, that said, pay particular attention to the factory OEM Intercooler, you'll notice the lower section of the factory OEM Intercooler is dirty, yet the upper section is shiny clean, quite clearly the upper shiny clean section of the factory OEM Intercooler is NOT in the path of any available passing through air stream, whilst the lower dirty section of the OEM Intercooler is in a direct air stream path of passing through air, rendering the factory OEM Intercooler less than 50% efficient at thermal exchange, due to its poor location, so as Jamie as already mention, positioning is crucial.



So along comes the aftermarket Intercooler, which claims albeit exaggerated, to perform better than the factory OEM Intercooler, which when you take this and many cases into account, is rather unfair given that the above ^^^ image clearly indicates that you shouldn't be swayed by aftermarket claims, of a superior aftermarket Intercooler when comparisons are judged against a smaller poor located less than 50% efficient factory OEM Intercooler.

With the location of the air to air Intercooler understood, let's move on to thermal exchange efficiency, so you have chosen your aftermarket Intercooler based on individual manufacturers claims, and customer reviews, just what do these individual manufacturer claims really mean ?

Lower air intake temperatures; is this claim down to superior core thermal exchange rates, or simply larger core volume ?

99% of the aftermarket Intercoolers offered, will be relying on the larger volume and location of the aftermarket Intercooler to reduce the air intake temperature, and in most cases not a well designed core built for maximum thermal exchange.

What is thermal exchange ?

This is when we want the charged intake air, passing through the Intercooler to reduce to ideally ambient or a few degrees above ambient, that said, although this can be achieved, remember the larger volume, can this reduction in air intake temperature be maintained at all times ?

In 99% of aftermarket Intercoolers on offer, the answer to, can the charged intake air be maintained at just a few degrees above or at ambient, the answer is no.

I hear you all say, yes mine does, well, no it doesn't, and here's why.

When you are driving, most of the time, we are at a steady cruise with light throttle, even when on the motorway at legal speeds, this steady cruise and throttle condition, is when the engine is under the least amount of stress load, which produces the least amount of engine internal thermal temperature, we also have a constant flow of ambient air being directed by the open grille to pass through the cooling radiator, and the Intercooler, if you've bought a larger than OEM Intercooler and mounted it infront of the cooling radiator.

For those of you who monitor air intake temperatures, you'll note that whilst in the condition of steady cruising under light to medium throttle conditions,that your chosen aftermarket Intercooler is doing an amazing job at keeping the charged intake air at possibly a few degrees above ambient, so your chosen aftermarket Intercooler must be doing what the individual manufacturer claimed.

Let's move up a stage in understanding thermal efficiency.

So, your chosen aftermarket Intercooler is doing a fantastic job, really ?

Let's put it to the test.

Now quite a lot of aftermarket Intercooler manufacturers use the word/s Race or Race proven, let's see what that equates to.

Race or Race proven, now when driving on the street or motorway, this is so far removed from actual Race conditions, you can NOT compare the two, on the street/motorway your chosen aftermarket Intercooler keeps your charged intake air at a reasonable temperature, what happens when we start to push the temperatures up, say, in Race conditions, or indeed heavy prolonged throttle conditions, how will your chosen aftermarket Intercooler fair then ?

Badly will be the answer, this is where the thermal exchange efficiency of your chosen aftermarket Intercooler core comes into play, or rather not, in 99% of cases.

We need to step back a little now, as in the individual aftermarket Intercoolers advertising blurb, they will talk about pressure drop, what are they referring to ?

Pressure drop is the charged pressure loss between the inlet and outlet of your chosen aftermarket Intercooler, this equates in the case of the Interooler core to the void (open space) between the cooling fins, know as FPI (fins per inch) the less FPI (fins per inch) the less the restriction of the charged (PSI) air intake pressure, which in turn is good by not robbing much of the initial charged (PSI) intake air pressure from the Turbo/Supercharger, whichever is applicable, however, because there is a lack of FPI (fins per inch) there is also a very very poor lack of actual thermal exchange efficiency.

So, do you want a low pressure drop figure or excellent thermal exchange efficiency ?


Now most aftermarket Intercooler manufacturers are proud to boast that their individual Intercooler has a very low pressure drop figure, and as most of the aftermarket tuning is all about gaining or retaining as much boosted charged air intake pressure (PSI) from either the Turbo or Supercharger, this tends to be the main focus point, and not how well the individual Intercooler performs at thermal exchange efficiency under Race or Race proven conditions, which for the majority of the time is overlooked, by anybody other than the serious full time dedicated Race cars/teams.

with a low pressure drop figure comes poor thermal exchange efficiency, so let's now talk about how a aftermarket Intercooler can be advertised as being intended for Race or Race proven, when it clearly has been advertised as having a very low pressure drop figure, generally speaking this is around 0.5-10 PSI reduction in your charged intake air pressure, with such a low pressure drop figure, as advertised, then the individual Intercooler must have a very poor thermal exchange,remember the FPI (fins per inch) and have an increased recovery time between being heat soaked and recovering from that heat soak due to having a low pressure drop figure which entailed very poor thermal exchange efficiency.

Heat soak, is when the Intercooler can no longer trade off the internal charged air temperature from being under loaded prolonged throttle condition "Race conditions", to the available passing through ambient air, due to the very low count of FPI (fins per inch) so as you can see, your chosen aftermarket Intercooler will have a delay (recovery rate) at reducing your charged intake air temperatures back in the direction of a few degrees above ambient, the less FPI (fins per inch) the longer the recovery time.

So when you next see your chosen aftermarket Intercooler as being fit for Race or Race proven, with dyne recorded thermal delta intake temperatures, does a dyno session build up prolonged internal thermal temperatures, to give accurate thermal delta exchange efficiency and recovery delta time of your chosen aftermarket Intercooler ?

The answer is NO.

So go ahead and ask the questions before you purchase.

[Chris_Blue]

May well have to drop Airtech an email with a couple questions on the efficiency of their intercooler then :-)
My OEM Turbo is noticeable at lower speeds, but much less so at higher, so much so I have to monitor the Turbo boost with a gauge to believe its still operating
Wonder if its that 40 deg celsius position then?

Obvs you could move the OEM cooler, but then it would just result in more silicone pipe, that would only heat the air up again?
Maybe try and get a better directional airflow into the OEM intercooler current position (Alway knew my bonnet vents would come in handy- will surely help airflow by way of having more air exit routes)

May have a play and remove my intercooler and have a look at the fins, and see if part of it appears less used than the rest (As in Czars photo)

Couldnt we just redivert the air conditioning output so it hits the intercooler Then switCH it on in the cab, when we wanna go faster LOL

This cant all be rocket scientist stuff- its only a method to reduce air temp for the Turbo, surely

[Czar]

May well have to drop Airtech an email with a couple questions on the efficiency of their intercooler then :-)
My OEM Turbo is noticeable at lower speeds, but much less so at higher, so much so I have to monitor the Turbo boost with a gauge to believe its still operating
Wonder if its that 40 deg celsius position then?

Obvs you could move the OEM cooler, but then it would just result in more silicone pipe, that would only heat the air up again?
Maybe try and get a better directional airflow into the OEM intercooler current position (Alway knew my bonnet vents would come in handy- will surely help airflow by way of having more air exit routes)

May have a play and remove my intercooler and have a look at the fins, and see if part of it appears less used than the rest (As in Czars photo)

Couldnt we just redivert the air conditioning output so it hits the intercooler Then switCH it on in the cab, when we wanna go faster LOL

This cant all be rocket scientist stuff- its only a method to reduce air temp for the Turbo, surely

The turbo has an operational boost pressure window, it is designed to offer low down RPM boost, as opposed to high RPM boost.

If a relocation of the factory OEM Intercooler was to be done, why would you need more Silicon tube, why not use Aluminium tube ?

You may laugh at your air conditioning idea, many many years ago, Lotus R&D engineers attempted to cool the air intake temperatures, by utilising the air condition charge cooler, sadly it never got passed the trial development stage, however, I and an Aeronatical engineering colleague of mine, took up where Lotus left the idea, and I now have an Intercooler that works off of the air conditioning charge pump, and reduces the air intake temperatures to below ambient.

Is it rocket science, yes it very nearly is.

[cyclone]

High tech version of the drag racers Ice box air water intercooler? Will last more than 1 run anyway!

[Chris_Blue]

The turbo has an operational boost pressure window, it is designed to offer low down RPM boost, as opposed to high RPM boost.

If a relocation of the factory OEM Intercooler was to be done, why would you need more Silicon tube, why not use Aluminium tube ?

You may laugh at your air conditioning idea, many many years ago, Lotus R&D engineers attempted to cool the air intake temperatures, by utilising the air condition charge cooler, sadly it never got passed the trial development stage, however, I and an Aeronatical engineering colleague of mine, took up where Lotus left the idea, and I now have an Intercooler that works off of the air conditioning charge pump, and reduces the air intake temperatures to below ambient.

Is it rocket science, yes it very nearly is.

The Turbo shows boost at higher revs, but that doesn't transfer to the pedal or acceleration

Would aluminium prevent heating of the internal gas effectively? (The air inside the pipe)

Air conditioning into an intercooler? Knew my "outside the box" thinking would yield results eventually. He-he.
Might try and redirect part of the air condition system then, but may well look at the tandeming up or moving of the existing intercooler first

[Czar]

High tech version of the drag racers Ice box air water intercooler? Will last more than 1 run anyway!

LOL, what I have is a tad bit more high tech than ice in a box.

The Turbo shows boost at higher revs, but that doesn't transfer to the pedal or acceleration

Would aluminium prevent heating of the internal gas effectively? (The air inside the pipe)

Air conditioning into an intercooler? Knew my "outside the box" thinking would yield results eventually. He-he.
Might try and redirect part of the air condition system then, but may well look at the tandeming up or moving of the existing intercooler first

Your gauge will show boost pressure at the upper regions of the RPM, however, your turbo is simply maintaining and not producing, that is where the difference is.

Aluminium has exceptional heat dissipation properties, therein lies the clue, as mentioned earlier.

I don't wish to burst your bubble, but if you think incorporating the air conditioning supply of below ambient air temperature, at or into your Intercooler, your in for a HUGE awakening, it took myself and my Aeronautical engineering friend 5 years to take the idea from Lotus, redesign it, manufacture it, lots of R&D trials, more redisigns, time, money, effort and frustration, to eventually get a working solution where I now have a charged Intercooler which cools the incoming charged intake temperature to below ambient.

If you don't wish to spend BIG money, simply relocate the factory OEM Intercooler, and make sure it get 100% of the ambient air to pass through the core, you must remember this when doing so, AIR WILL ALWAYS TAKE THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE !!

[Chris_Blue]

Ahhhhh. My bubble has burst :-(
Least I have a few ideas to tinker with :-)

[Chris_Blue]

Response from Airtech:

hi chris. they are a larger surface area and thicker core, using airtecs well proven bar and plate design.

its so new i don t know the actual gains. all depends on your cars state of tune. generally the more tuned the better the gains and on a stock car i generally say about 10bhp and 10lbsft as a conservative estimate. they are hugely popular with the ford rs and st market.

if you have further questions. please do ask

thanks

Neil


sounds good to me